Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger

"Mark - Sixpots None The Richer" (marklinde) 04/05/2014 at 10:24 • Filed to: Autobahn, German, infrastructure, Germany, Kolbenfresser

41

100

Oh boy, this is going to be a long one. Make yourself a coffee or open up a beer and then listen to some music while you unravel my thoughts.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I'm a German gearhead.

"Lucky bastard", you think because I have the largest public racetrack in the world right on my doorstep: No, not the Nordschleife - The famous Autobahn.

This mythical strip of tarmac is the last retreat for controlled craziness and legal lunacy. The Autobahn is our hero fighting against the health and safety madness and ravaging ban culture. It's the petrolhead's Mecca and every Jalops bucket list destination.

And I don't care for it.

"You fucking car-hating millennial bastard", you think right now. Not exactly correct, because I love cars and the culture surrounding it. That's why I'm writing here after all. I will use the metric system by the way. Only cause I can and to annoy you. Get a converter ready if you need one.

Ready? Here we go:

The truth is that the Autobahn is simply a transportation device for me, and I never particularly enjoyed driving on it. It's absolutely possible that I would think different about the Autobahn, if I was a gearhead anywhere else in the world, and only knew the Autobahn from watching countless videos, reading glorifying articles and listening to mind-blowing stories. Maybe if I was a supercar owner, I'd cherish the possibilities the derestricted bits have to offer me more. But those sentiments and impressions are mostly illusions, dreams or just a small tessera of the mosaic that is the Autobahn experience.

In real life the actual driving is mostly an uneasy mixture of sensations somewhere between boring, tiresome and stressful. I honestly can't think of a difference to other motor-/highways all around the world. And while some of you might claim to be leadfoot heroes, for most of us driving 180 km/h and more is a white-knuckled tunnel vision affair. Yes, it is a thrill, but not necessarily an enjoyable one. And no, I'm not a wimp and my driving abilities are sufficient, I guess.

But don't forget that you are not driving on a racetrack. You share the road with tired truckers who drove non-stop from Uzbekistan with only one working disc brake and unsecured cargo, aggressive wannabe racecar drivers and stressed out businessmen sealing a deal in their company cars while flashing their lights at clueless dimwits in diesel hatches with whom you won't even share your Forza account.

And are you truly turned on by straight line speeding? This is not a slap against drag racing which is very different, I'm not an idiot. Yet, unless you are in an obscenely powerful car there is not really much happening after you reach about 150 km/h. Yes, you are travelling increasingly faster, but the wide road is diluting the speed and you are not exactly feeling any g-forces right until you have to slam on the brake because a dutch pig-transporter pulled out of his lane 300 m ahead of you. Thanks a lot "Love Machine". No, I really don't need the derestricted Autobahn.

That's just me of course. But I'm afraid all of you who like the idea of high speed ecstasy have to be strong now. As some of you might know this protected area of outstanding unnatural velocity is severely endangered.

The speed limit debate is a reoccurring theme in every silly season over here, and every year this topic is buried once real political issues are discussed again in Berlin, like what reform project has to be postponed next and who is to blame for stalling this time around.

So why do I think that every Jalop should be planning a trip to Germany in the not too distant future? What is going on over here in "Schland" and what do I think about it?

For decades the arguments of the debate are well established and cemented. I give you a few facts first. "I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself", Churchill famously said, so I tried to find data that is up to date and trustworthy.

Germany's road network is 640.000 km long. For the statistical analysis we ignore the minor municipality roads, so 230.700 km are remaining of which 12.800 km (5,55%) are Autobahnen. About 30% of the Autobahn is already permanently restricted with varying speed limits. Sadly, 3.340 people died on German roads last year. 304 or 9,1% of them on the Autobahn. As the very vulnerable cyclists and pedestrians are for obvious reasons not travelling on the Autobahn, the number of fatalities is quite high, and hints to the dangers of going fast. This is also underlined by the fact that accidents on the Autobahn only account for 6,28% of all the accidents on the roads.

That's not saying much about the traffic volume though. About one third of road traffic in Germany is carried by the Autobahn. The rate of fatalities per billion vehicle-kilometers traveled is – depending on the source - around 2 to 3 compared to the rate of around 7 to 9 fatalities on other roads. Although the data is differing, the fatality rate is unquestionably lower than for example on the restricted motor-/highways in Austria, Belgium and the US.

It's very difficult to find data about the causes of accidents and whether they happened on a derestricted section or not. I won't start to guess here.

Based on those facts some say the Autobahn is safe enough, and there is no need for changing anything. Others believe a society should try to protect everyone from unnecessary hazards. So every accident related to what is perceived as excessive speeding – no matter how many there actually are – should be prevented by enforcing a limit.

This is also the right time to debunk a myth. The German Autobahn is not exactly derestricted because there is an advisory speed limit of 130 km/h. To quote Wikipedia: "The advisory speed is not enforceable, however, being involved in an accident driving at higher speeds can lead to the driver being deemed at least partially responsible due to "increased operating danger". So basically it means: Do what you want, but hope nothing goes wrong while driving faster than 130 km/h. You will become liable!

Now it gets really complicated. Heated and very ideological debates are raging over environmental and health related effects of a speed limit. I won't get into boring details about CO2-emissions and noise-levels here because the data is mostly relying on estimates which are quite often tainted by whoever made the study and what they want to achieve with it. Undoubtedly there will be measurable improvements – i.e. lower emissions and noise-levels. Whether those are actually making a difference in the bigger picture and therefore justify a federally mandated blanket speed limit is the crux of the matter.

The speed limit debate, however, isn't just about the facts. I have to be careful with comparisons here since the topic I will compare it to is a sensitive issue and I have admittedly not the knowledge to talk about it. But the nature of the speed limit debate appears to be similar to the gun politics in the US. Both debates are strangely emotional and thus illogical. That's were it gets interesting and my opinion comes into play.

The Autobahn is as German as Sauerkraut, Bier, Wurst, Oktoberfest, Wirtschaftswunder, the D-Mark, Social market economy, organisational skills, engineering excellence and whatever stereotypes you can think of. It's difficult to talk about stereotypes, for I have no idea what you guys really know and think about Germans and Germany.

It's pretty safe to assume, however, that the Autobahn debate is an indicator for the German mindset.

Germany is like an elderly person in your neighbourhood. He is known to be hard-working, reliable, fairly wealthy and his nice house and garden are exceptionally clean. You don't mind talking to him over the fence, but he is too humorless and socially awkward to invite him over to an evening with your friends. Because you are curious you google his name and find out he murdered someone decades ago. This is why he is so serious and awkward you think. He is organised and correct to give his life a structure and to make a good impression on everybody else while struggling with confidence problems and guilt. And now, of course, you feel uncomfortable around him.

The clichés I listed earlier may be true, but so are the following ones: Hitler, national-socialism, holocaust, militarism, punctuality, sincerity, dullness, smugness, arrogance and Hitler. Yes, Hitler has to be mentioned at least twice. It's not easy to be German, believe me or ask Jeremy Clarkson. Germans have a very complicated relationship with "their" country and lack a patriotic confidence nearly every other nation celebrates. Some countries are even proud of their stereotypes.

I'm 30 years old. My grandparents were teenagers during the Second World War and weren't involved at all. Yet, I'm German and will always be somehow connected to the history of the Fatherland. And when you look at it closely even the positive stereotypes aren't exactly friendly, warm and full of joie de vivre. Furthermore as a German I can't identify myself with the Oktoberfest, Wurst and other clichés. Are you Americans all Cowboys, eat Hamburgers and play Baseball?

But for every sightly patriotic or ashamed German there always was the Autobahn. Yeah, ok, and football. But in spite of their successes those mullet haired monads and their rather joyless and sometimes brutish interpretation of the game weren't exactly charming ambassadors.

The Autobahn on the other hand is well known all around the world and a famous tourist attraction. And since "Autobahn" is a rather positive buzzword it became a marketing tool for our (car-)industry. Not only is it a showcase for organisational skill and engineering excellence it also provides a much needed nuttiness you won't otherwise associate with Germany.

An Italian Autobahn? Sure!

Full throttle Russians? Naturally!

Those rational Germans and dangerous speeds? Never!

Not only foreigners are enchanted by the legendary asphalted wonder of the world. The Germans themselves created a fabulous lore around it.

There is a bit of national pride involved when "we" think that for example Italians and Russians couldn't make such a system work. They'd all be roadkill in a decade or so – they are just too undisciplined. (Attention: This is only a stereotype!)

"Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger!" (unlimited speed/travelling for free citizens) is a very controversial motto created by the ADAC (the biggest German car club) in the 70s and is used to this day by different anti-speed limit groups and lobbyists. It encapsulates more or less intentionally a democratic spirit which could be misused to distinguish Western Germany and it's democracy from national-socialism and socialism - specifically in the GDR - during the earlier years of the Federal Republic. Being against the derestricted Autobahn could therefore be linked to being against freedom and democratic values. Does this remind you of something?

As I tried to explain, the Autobahn is a cultural icon. Any politician who seriously wanted to change something about the order of things had to fight the windmills of strong lobbyists (car clubs and (car-)industry) and the voters romanticism and pride.

However, since the very emotional but also costly reunification over two decades ago, Germany slowly but surely gets overtaken by reality and the old stereotypes start to wear off. The traditional virtues are fading in context of the almighty globalisation and immigration. "Nobody" eats Sauerkraut anymore, but "everyone" eats at fast food franchises you Americans know too well.

Our social market economy is beginning to show the first signs of weakness against the global competition and the social aspects of our system have taken a back seat in favour of banks and big business. Wirtschaftswunder and D-Mark are history, while Euro crisis, recession and a rapidly aging population are in our collective minds.

And then there is the whole EU-monstrosity ruling over us which nobody understands let alone loves. Changes are everywhere and inevitable.

But the traffic flow on the Autobahn is still rolling as unhindered as ever. Comforting, right?

That's why people are so reluctant to give up this pillar of germaness.

Yet, there are a few reasons why I believe that the days of terminal velocity are numbered.

German politics

Environmental concerns and the planned Energy transition make fundamental changes necessary, everywhere. The Autobahn is in addition no longer considered a sacred ground. The LKW-Maut (truck-toll) was implemented in 2005 and a toll for (foreign) cars is being planned.

The EU

Even if no German politician will ever dare to commit political suicide by fighting for a speed limit, Brussels, mostly not depending on any voters opinion, might just do that. Our politicians can point to scapegoats at some obscure EU institution, make a sad face for the cameras and say that there is nothing they can do about it.

"Car-hating Millennials"

They are becoming a stronger political force with every election. Speed and horsepower are the past, green and organic is the future. For them it's all about health, safety and sustainability for themselves and the(ir) children.

The car industry

Traditionally the carmakers in Germany had a strong bond with the Autobahn. Like I mentioned it was the ideal marketing device to convey the benefits of horsepower and German quality for them. Since the car-hating millennials want eco-friendly, economical and safe cars, "speed" is - sadly? - not marketable anymore. So why should they keep on lobbying for the lavish deathtrap that is the Autobahn?

Car clubs

The biggest car club in Germany, the mighty ADAC, was very successful in the past in keeping the politicians and voters in line. However, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! this year a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! shook the club resulting in people quitting their memberships and a huge loss of credibility. The influence of the ADAC might not be as strong as before the crisis.

Tourism

Passing on money by losing thrill-seeking tourists may possibly be the only real disadvantage of a speed limit although I don't think it would have a noticeable economic impact. The Autobahn is not our Panama Canal after all.

Cultural importance and German identity

Does anyone seriously believe any of the stereotypes I wrote here earlier or did you at one point? We are living in an era of global communication and changing identities. We are not just defining ourselves as "German", "American" or "Croatian" anymore. Additionally we are "Jalops", "Manga-enthusiasts" or "backpacking adventurers", and find like-minded people all over the world. We don't need national symbols and reassuring stereotypes for our self esteem anymore when we can all hate on Justin Bieber together. Especially inside the EU, despite the distrust against the political side of the integration, there is an ever growing common identity. So, would any German lose his identity by losing the unique Autobahn? Most of my friends are indifferent towards the Autobahn already, so I think "we" can manage without it. I also think that in a way "we" have to implement a speed limit in order to shed all the old, unwanted clichés together with it once and for all. "We" are not living in the 50s anymore, so let's show it to everyone. I have to admit that I'm ignoring a huge part of our society that is frightened by change. They cling on to old habits and symbols in order to feel comfortable. For them the Autobahn is calming continuity and a reminder of the past when everything was - seemingly - easier.

It's difficult for me to decide which side to take here. I'm annoyed with the ban culture, exaggerated political correctness and very much in favour of making your own (sometimes wrong) decisions. And I'm afraid of what will be abolished after the Autobahn derestriction falls. The Ring?

Still, as you might have guessed already I'm all for a federally mandated blanket speed limit of let's say 130 km/h. In this case I do think that every unnecessary victim is one too many and in my opinion sustainability and health come before absolute speed - no matter how insignificant the reduction of CO2-emissions and noise-levels actually are.

What do you think? Maybe !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! might help to heat up the discussion.

I'm not saying that the Autobahn as we know it will be gone tomorrow, and I won't embarrass myself by guessing how many years of terminal velocity are still to come. It will be long enough for anyone of you to start saving money and come over here before it's too late. That's for sure!

Just don't argue, that I didn't warn you early enough!

Slave2anMG > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 10:37

8

I'm American. And have both driven the Autobahn at 165 kph and ridden in a BMW M5 at 240 kph. It's fast, yeah...but pretty much everything you say about driving it is true. It's just not that big of a deal. It's nice that you cover ground more quickly but otherwise...I found the mountain roads in the south much more entertaining. The one thing that I really do find refreshing, and it's all over Europe, is the lane discipline. Slower traffic really does keep right (or left in the UK)...

crowmolly > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 10:39

16

Excellent article! I'd give it more stars if I could.

I will compare it to is a sensitive issue and I have admittedly not the knowledge to talk about it. But the nature of the speed limit debate appears to be similar to the gun politics in the US.

And you are accurate here in my opinion. I've made this EXACT comparison myself. A lot of people from other countries think we all have arsenals in each house and everybody rips off a few magazines every weekend. In reality that's not the case in the least. Many people have no firearms, and many of those that do only have a rifle or two. There is an entire culture around gun ownership but it's not representative of the regular population. There are constant debates about our right to bear arms and its application in today's world.

The last time I was in Germany I was on the Autobahn a few times, and each time it was not unlike some of the roads here in the US, to be blunt. It was better engineered, clean, and well maintained but the cars were all doing 100-130 km/h which is speeding here in the USA but is also a very common occurance. A few guys went past doing maybe 180km/h or so but there was nothing REALLY out there. I'm sure it happens but it looks dangerous as hell because of all of the regular traffic you have to drive around.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Slave2anMG 04/05/2014 at 10:53

0

Yeah, you are right! Driving a nice car like the M5 on a twisty road is way more engaging and satisfying for me too. I have to admit, though, that I have never driven anything remotely comparable...

Flavien Vidal > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 10:54

2

You make good point but I don't agree with you... Not logically as your arguments are a lot more logical than mine but nonetheless lol.

I am lucky enough to regulary go to Germany and the main symbol of Germany are for me, Porsche, BMW, VW, Bier, wusrt and the autobahn with the only toll road in Germany being the Ring. I don't mean to sound like an asshole as I've spent quite a bit of time in Germany, and actually learned german for 8 years (I can have a basic conversation but i suck for someone who learned german that long lol), but without the autobahn, I will be A LOT less exited to drive there every once in a while. It will become just another country. Since I can't find a logical reason to go to the isle of Mann, I just pray for the autobahn to stay the way it is... The last bit of automotive freedom.

Sure it will be less dangerous with speed limits, sure it might pollute a TINY bit less, but i don't care. I LOVE germany, thanks to the autobahn and the ring... With the ring's fate being a big question mark, what's left of it for the average car geek if the autobahn goes too one day? Sure the Porsche and BMW museum are awesome but you know... :)

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > crowmolly 04/05/2014 at 10:54

1

I'm glad you liked it. And I second everything you wrote.

Bluecold > Slave2anMG 04/05/2014 at 10:55

1

In the netherlands, it's less discipline, more a heavily fined offense. It also means that people don't move over for people merging. If you want to observe the right-keeping discipline of the dutch, observe an escalator.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Flavien Vidal 04/05/2014 at 11:14

0

Yeah, i can see you point. Especially the freedom bit is really bugging me too.

Germany isn't a spectacular tourist destination. I don't care for Neuschwanenstein and the Oktoberfest. And there is a reason why Germans like to travel a lot.

Maybe some car enthusiasts here will lose the most important reason to come over, but there are quite a few - mostly young - people from all over the world who vistit for example Berlin to party with "the new Germans" and visit Checkpoint Charlie. I'm glad that Germany's reputation changed in the last two decades and we are establishing a new image that is more based on the people here and not "our things".

I don't mean to offend you personally, but that's the reason why "we" can do without "you".

Deputy Kovacs > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 12:39

1

Really enjoyed this, but I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing. Credit to you for taking the time to write everything out, though.

I'm in my second semester of German in college right now, and I'm really enjoying being able to learn all of the culture and history of Germany, and how that shapes people today. I hope I can blend my finance, love of cars and new German linguistics into a solid career.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Deputy Kovacs 04/05/2014 at 13:10

0

Germany is a really interesting country - not despite of - but because of the difficult past. And you are right, it shapes us Germans profoundly although, as I mentioned, you can feel changes in my generation (about 30 years old or younger). There is a lot to discover here that you might overlook while blitzing through at over 100 mph. ;-)

duurtlang > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 13:45

2

I liked your article. Well thought out and it gives outsiders a better image of the German mindset.

Living about half an hour from the German border I've driven many kilometers in Germany. If there would be a blanket speed limit of 130 km/h, just like we have it here, it wouldn't bother me one bit. Sure, it's nice to test the top speed of your car once. Maybe twice. Driving fast in a straight line is boring yet exhausting though. How fast do I drive on the unrestricted parts of the Autobahn? About 120-130 km/h. Even at home I tend to drive about 120 where there's a speed limit 130 km/h. Driving faster isn't more enjoyable, you gain an insignificant amount of time and it's more stressful. I don't see the point. Like you mentioned, it's the mountain roads that are enjoyable.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > duurtlang 04/05/2014 at 15:20

0

Thank you! Let's all vote for mountains!

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 15:23

1

I feel the reason Germany's Autobahn is so coveted is in the way it has been constructed. Sure, The Italian Autostrada is also an amazing road network, and let's not forget the perfectly paved Spanish Autopistas. All these roads have amazing technology and even more amazing people behind them. The Autobahn is a step above, though. Where else in the world can you find a roadside assistance group (ADAC) that has choppers, modified high-speed vehicles, and thousands upon thousands of cameras to keep track of the people on the roads?

The autobahn is usually associated with high speed commuting. Because you can make a system like that work, you can have it. Americans had an unrestricted highway in Montana in the 1970's. That was restricted due to a gas crisis. Brits also used to be able to go fast, and then a man did 180mph in a Shelby Cobra. Since everyone else was going 70 in their fords and austins, this was bad.

Yes, I know it's just a road, but like you said, it's as German as Oktoberfest.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 04/05/2014 at 15:44

1

I agree that the Autobahn works here "well enough" because an infrastructure grew around it. Without the far-sighted construction, the ADAC, and the emergency response system it would be different. You also have to mention the driver's discipline and the statutory vehicle maintenance that is important to keep up the relative safety.

But would it be so different for example in the UK or US when they'd implement such a system step by step in the near future? I have no idea, help me out.

It doesn't seem necessary in other countries, so why is it that we still have the derestriction then?

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 16:42

0

I think because the Autobahn was originally designed to allow germans to travel at upmost speeds originally is the reason it still has no mandatory limits imposed.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 04/05/2014 at 16:49

0

So you wouldn't change it for now? Okay!

Mikeado > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/05/2014 at 17:48

2

This is an excellent read. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

At times I was reminded of the /DRIVE video where JF tries to go 300km/h in an Audi RS7, but found it tiring and difficult to even try.

As it happens, three weeks ago my Uni class went on a trip from GB to Stuttgart, which involved a brief stretch of Autobahn. Of course, I associate that name with two things, the Kraftwerk song and people going 250km/h+ in M5s and RS6s and 911s, so when we merged onto it, the optimistic part of my brain expected it to look like a trackday (I was in the back of a coach, not in an M5, so I couldn't partake or try to "live the dream"). It didn't. We got there at roughly the same time as everyone else did, so it just looked like any other motorway full of commuters, except with more Mk.1 Renault Twingos and Merc GLKs - they aren't available in RHD markets - and with everyone on the wrong side of the road. There were probably only two or three cars going particularly quickly when things calmed down, and they weren't particularly interesting ones. A few days later, on our way back, there were a couple more speed demons in the dead of night, which was satisfying to (briefly) watch and hear. So I can easily believe what you're saying about that part. I can't pretend to know anything of the politics surrounding the Autobahn, although in places it bears similarities to the debates we have in the UK about raising or lowering the 70mph (112.65km/h) motorway limit that 90% of drivers ignore anyway (they won't punish you for speeding unless you're doing well over 80mph (128.75km/h)).

Personally I'm not a fan of national stereotypes, as they're often patronising, ignorant and outdated. I always avoid associating Germany with the Nazis because I like to think the nation moved on a long time ago (oh, and I apologise on behalf of drunk English football fans chanting "Two world wars and one world cup!," who don't seem to have noticed that Germany has essentially beaten us at everything since, even our very own sport of Formula 1 in terms of the driver's title). Besides, I was born in 1991, so I have nothing to do with WWII myself and consider it merely as a history lesson and something that Jeremy Clarkson jokes about unnecessarily. I like what I know and have seen of Germany, and Stuttgart is a lovely city, with lovely pubs serving lovely beer. I do regret not learning more German phrases before going, though. While almost everyone spoke English as well, it would've been nice to try to blend in a bit better!

While it feels like it'll be a couple of years yet, I would like to go back to Germany in my own car and take the Autobahn down to the Nürburgring. Two automotive dreams knocked out in one trip wouldn't be bad going, if I could go over 100mph legally and then lap the Nordschleife without crashing.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Mikeado 04/05/2014 at 18:23

1

Thank you for your kind words and and your long reply.

Here is my opinion about stereotypes regarding your drunken football fans, your press celebrating nationalistic clichés and the foul-mouthed Jeremy Clarkson:

I LOVE IT! Seriously, I can take jokes and as long as it isn't too simplistic and stale, I can laugh with you. You don't wanna know how many Nazi-jokes we tell us among friends and how much we hate the French! ;-)

It's harmless fun, of course, and my Polish friends are laughing with - and even outdo - us frequently. We know each other and understand what we mean.

I need to know that people are reflecting about stereotypes and see beyond them in their lives. This is the lesson the Third Reich gave us the hard way. If someone is truly close-minded, nationalistic, xenophobic and/or racist- we can't be friends!

Another point is that we outgrew the stereotypes and stay above them now. Germany's self esteem slowly recovers and the world moves closer together. Your visit and our conversation are the best proof.

I watch for example Top Gear, QI, Never Mind The Buzzcocks, 8 Out Of 10 Cats, Black Books and Peep Show. I love Monty Python, Irvine Welsh and worship Stephen Fry. That defines me more than "being German".

Yet, after all that I've written you Britons still are inbred islanders, suck at penalty shootouts and you all worship the Queen. Right?

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/06/2014 at 03:02

6

No, I wouldn't change it. It is what all roads should strive to be. The Americans are taking note. In texas, there are now stretches of Highway with 80mph speed limits. They're freshly paved, angled to allow rain runoff, have sound walls in populated areas, and I think they're illuminated as well! If Germany keeps the autobahn, then there will be a standard that all others need to achieve!

Spasoje > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/06/2014 at 20:46

0

Fascinating read!

What stood out for me most was the apparent juxtaposition of what I've come to know as the North American mentality over the European mentality I'm familiar with. Germany seems to be where East and West come together...and I don't mean immigration hehe

That said, if the Autobahn is one thing that symbolizes that stereotypical German discipline (we do believe - we want to believe!), then let it never change. Society needs the awkward, hard-working old guy, after all.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Spasoje 04/06/2014 at 20:58

1

I'm afraid the old guy will retire soon and you'll have to deal with his spoiled grandchildren. ;-)

OnlyTheShadowKnows > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 12:44

1

Fuck you!

Raphael Orlove > crowmolly 04/08/2014 at 13:25

4

just wanted to chime in and say that yeah, the speed limit issue is very much the German equivalent of America's gun rights issue, mostly in how it's approached in politics.

Even in the early '80s at the height of the power of the Green Party, when the entire country was in a panic about car pollution (worse at high speed) killing the nation's treasured forests (they called it Waldsterben, or forest-death), they couldn't get rid of unlimited speeds on the Autobahn.

PeteRR > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:25

3

Deutschland has given up too much to the EU and the Greens already. You have the skill, discipline, and wealth to maintain the Autobahn. Do so or risk becoming Belgium.

Jeff Glucker > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:28

2

Very well written, nice work!

I finally got to travel to Europe for the first time ever last year. Destination? Berlin! I would be driving the new Volkswagen GTD from Berlin to Wolfsburg, which meant I would finally get to drive a vehicle down the Autobahn.

This was a dream come true. Of course, I wish I were driving something like a 911 Turbo, an Audi R8, or, hell anything with a higher top end than the GTD. Still, it's the German-market car so it's not limited to 125 or whatever the US-spec car stops at.

The roads were fairly empty, and I had a few stretches to push it... and it was occasionally terrifying, just like you said. It was also wonderful for my first time.

Still, I can see every bit of your argument, and it makes perfect sense. This isn't your local racetrack, it's your local section of road upon which you commute. There are many (many) large trucks lumbering down the road, a handful of inattentive drivers (far less than I see in the US though, thankfully), and occasional lane changers that can cause you to eexercise the brakes to their fullest.

As a tourist in your lovely country, I'd hate to see the unrestricted Autobahn disappear... but I'd understand why it went away.

Also, the VW engineers told me the top speed of the GTD was 143 miles per hour...

I hit 144.

55_mercury > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:34

0

One of the better articles I've read here. Now- this is coming from me, who has never even been to Germany. But a friend of mine who is from there said that one of the big problems with the Autobahn is that large swaths of it are fairly congested. So in many cases its not like you can go out and drive fast immediately.

As far as more deaths in the US, well despite the speed limits, its a huge country and once you leave the cities you have 1000's of miles of mostly empty freeways and with that comes people driving like idiots. Anyone from California like me knows that going to vegas is like driving in the Indianapolis 500. Speed limit 70 MPH? Oh well, most seem to go at least 90 or more. Mostly people who are used to driving in bottlenecks and congested city traffic and hence little experience driving at those speeds.

Nisman > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:35

0

For the record, all Americans do eat Hamburgers (if we include veggie burgers, etc.) Also, did anybody else read the whole article with a German accent in their head? Great read either way, good insight.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:40

1

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I have to say, I personally disagree with the idea that traveling quickly isn't thrilling, but that's just me.

As you pointed out, deaths on the Autobahn are a very small fraction of total road deaths, and if you were to look at A) how many of those occurred in derestricted sections and then B) how many of those were due to excessive speed, you'd probably have a small fraction of that number. Purely from a statistical standpoint, it does not seem that speed is a factor, really.

We have an appalling amount of road deaths over here in the US, and I can tell you that many of them are not due to excessive speed per se, but due to incompetence and the inability of drivers to control their cars. Also, perhaps a general lack of focus. It seems that in Germany, you spend much more time educating drivers and expect much more of them. This is one of the reasons why you are able to have the Autobahn, as people are actually expected to know how to handle such a situation. Over here, you're only expected to know basics that really have nothing to do with car control. This seems to be the biggest difference.

I wish we had such a road system over here, but it would require a fundamental shift in driver education. I think with proper construction, proper law enforcement, and proper driver education, there isn't (in my mind) any reason why you shouldn't have a derestricted freeway system. It doesn't seem immediately apparent that restrictions are needed on the Autobahn either, and it would be a shame to see it happen.

Diesel > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:43

0

I have personally found that Germans are the easiest to drink with in foreign countries. Mainly because they know how to drink. The worst, has to be Russians. Arrogant bastards.

Pockets > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 04/08/2014 at 13:45

0

The thing with the Autobahns is that large slices of it are actually pretty rubbish. Things like junctions, etc. are pretty tight (and those ones where it runs parallel and everyone has to merge in are absolutely irritating), the surface of it is often patched up and lines quite faded (so become tricky to see in the dark), etc. I remember the first couple of times I went on it I was really quite surprised and a little disappointed. The difference is in the culture that surrounds it, not in the engineering (like you say there are a bunch of countries that have great motorway networks).

Alex Asrian > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:45

0

Those reasons are spot on.

I hope they leave it alone; learning the mythological Autobahn at a young age is one of the reasons I got hooked on cars.

55_mercury > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:52

2

i

nterestingly enough I feel that the US and Germany in many ways share many cultural aspects together. For example most of the US's large beer makers all got their start from German immigrant families. The Midwest was heavily settled by German immigrants and with that came expertise which led to the creation of carmakers, engineering firms, and pharmaceutical companies- many of which are still with us today. When I traveled to Detroit I met a lot of people who had been in the area for a long time, many with family members who had come from Germany. There was a markedly strong work ethic.

But as I grow older I find that as obvious as this sounds that regardless of where we're from, we're all in it together and usually want about the same things in life.

Barbarian772 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:56

2

In all seriousness: I think 130kph wouldn't change a lot. I'm from Austria and we have 130 on our Autobahnen(weird to use that in english) and I think speedlimits don't matter.

I don't have a lot of experience in driving on german roads, the only bit of german autobahn I've ever drive myself is the bit Passau-Deggendorf-München. I've never before felt as safe on any road. The average speed of everyone was probably a tad higher than here in Austria, but no one drove a lot faster than 200.

I am generally against any speed limit anywhere, except for maybe school areas, or towns in general.If the road is empty and the only one you could possibly hurt is you, go at it. Drive as fast as you want/as fast as the conditions allow it. Accidents happen, they happen here and they happen in Germany and a speed limit won't change that and it certainly won't change the speed everyone is really going.

Lowering the speed limit can actually lead to more accidents, becuase the average speed stays roughly the same, but some "law abiding citizens" are suddenly driving 30kph slower than everyone else...

golfball > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:56

1

I find speed limits only have a passing effect on how fast people actually drive. A few years ago, many speed limits in Texas went from 70/65 night to 75 all around. People pretty much drove around 75-80 during the day and 70-75 at night before the change and continued to drive about the same speed afterwards. The main difference seems to be a lot fewer speed traps- not enough people "speeding" to justify the cost.

Brede > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:56

1

I've driven on the Autobahn several times, and while driving really fast is fun for a little while I always end up crusing at 120-150km/h depending on which car I'm driving. Driving at 200+ for extended periods of time in traffic is tiring.

slickstersrr > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 13:57

0

Can we leave a few herd thinning devices alone please? There isn't enough earth for everyone to have kids and live 90 years....

ED9man2 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:00

2

Still, as you might have guessed already I'm all for a federally mandated blanket speed limit of let's say 130 km/h. In this case I do think that every unnecessary victim is one too many and in my opinion sustainability and health come before absolute speed - no matter how insignificant the reduction of CO2-emissions and noise-levels actually are.

Yeah, great idea, because there are overwhelming statistics that speed limits save lives. Germany does it right, they allow drivers to choose a speed that is comfortable to them and they aggressively enforce common sense passing rules. Numerous NHTSA studies in the US confirm that raising limits decreases accidents. Low limits lead to inattentive or self righteous drivers clogging up the left lane forcing people to pass on the right which is unsafe. Low limits cause increased speed differentials between drivers that obey the very low limit and other drivers who ignore it and choose a more reasonable speed. On the Autobahn you need to be fully alert and attentive at all times if you choose to pass. Not so on the mind numbing 65 limit interstates in the US where people are half asleep at the wheel. You said yourself that Germany has lower accident rates! There's a reason! Of course one person gets in a high profile high speed wreck, and damn the statistics we have to do something! You are right, it is a product of the fucked up nanny state ban culture that looks good politically, and is a great way for politicians cover their asses and appease a loud emotional minority. But it's bad for the majority, and people are too dumb to look at cold hard statistics when there is some crying mother on TV. There's only ONE irrational and emotional side in this debate.

mstrjon32 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:00

1

I must say, as someone who drives the German Autobahn daily, I think that it is overly romanticized. Yes, I love the derestricted zones when I am out on a Sunday morning and there are no other drivers, but other times, it is severely congested—much more so than the Italian Autostrada or the French Autoroutes. This is probably due in large part to the prohibitive cost of driving on those roads, but it makes a big difference in how nice they are to drive.

Furthermore, the quality of many of the roads isn't nearly as good as the French or Italian roads. Their roads are wider, with more lanes and wider lanes, better maintained, and honestly, more suitable for an "unrestricted" speed limit than most of the German roads. Again, this likely comes down to cost and utilization: less road users means less wear on the road.

The reality of it is, though, that driving in Germany, even if you are not driving over 130km/h, is much less stressful overall. The fines that the Italians and French (and especially the hugely-unpleasant Swiss) impose for speeding are out of control. You could easily find yourself paying 200€ or more for a trivial infraction of 10km/h over...whereas in Germany a similar violation might get you a 15€ fine. If you are driving 200km/h in Switzerland? You'll spend a year in jail. In Germany, I think right now the worst you can do (assuming you're actually breaking a law by driving that speed in a restricted zone, and then somehow, get caught—cameras on the Autobahn are very few and far between) is a 3-month ban and something like a 650€ fine.

These fines have made everyone more concerned with not breaking a pointless speed limit than with the safety of driving. In Germany, you pay attention to the road, you look for hazards, you drive responsibly. Elsewhere in the EU? You keep your keys fixed on the speedometer 90% of the time.

So, get rid of the unrestricted zones if you must, it really won't matter much, but leave the rest of it alone.

pflpflpfl > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:03

1

My experiences on Autobahn are quite similar as on highways in Finland. In here we have 120km/h limit but people quite often do a bit more than that, maybe 130-140km/h. In Germany I feel that most people drove something around 140-150km/h. That is pretty much the maximum comfortable speed with other traffic, gradient changes and bends. Also the fuel consumption gets increasingly worse when you go above 100km/h area. 200km/h speeds will cost you A LOT. In this way I do not see point in restricting the Autobahn.

Slizzo82 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:06

0

The one thing that maddened me the most about living in Germany and driving the autobahns, is that they don't follow the typical American design of their being an onramp and offramp on either side of the autobahn. Meaning on a stretch of highway travelling North to South, you may only have an onramp and offramp on the Northbound side; there often isn't an on/offramp on the opposing side of the autobahn.

I know some interstates do have this, but it's infrequent. More of than not there is an on/offramp on both sides of the highway. For someone that isn't entirely familiar with the Autobahn, when you miss an exit it may take kilometers of travel to find your way back onto the opposing direction of travel, and then you may not have an ausfahrt for intended destination.

Can be maddening.

fintail > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:07

0

I'd love to see Brussels get involved - maybe then some Germans could finally commandeer a couple of bombers and level the place, as should have been done ages ago. Time for the gradual loss of sovereignty to be sent to the firing squad, literally, if need be. Death to the Eurocrats.

Drew > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:09

0

Regarding national stereotypes, the rest of y'all US folks can blame that one on me. I've got two sets of cowboy boots that vary depending on how formal the occasion. I have season tickets to an MLB franchise (go Rangers) and I own at least one firearm. To go the extra American mile, I live in a city that built a 60-yard long HD TV for the football stadium, which was then eclipsed by a 94.5ft by 218.5ft monstrosity at our local NASCAR track. I have had moonshine in the last 24 hours and I own a Cadillac and a Corvette. So...yeah, that one is on me. Sorry.

The Gray Adder > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:11

1

"It's the petrolhead's Mecca and every Jalops bucket list destination."

And I've been there! In a friend's 6-cylinder 3-series going at least 100 MPH. Booyah!

I've also been to Oktoberfest. The real one in Munich. The Super Bowl of beer. And I got hammered!

That's two tickets punched...

Super Nintendo Chalmers > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:11

1

At the end of the day this opinion piece is just that. In terms of safety - you don't have an argument and speed limits don't do anything but empower those who refuse to go w/ the flow of traffic to endanger themselves and others.

"In 2012, autobahns carried 31% of motorized road traffic while accounting for 11% of Germany's traffic deaths. The autobahn fatality rate of 1.7 deaths per billion-travel-kilometers compared favorably with the 5.1 rate on urban streets and 7.6 rate on rural roads"

http://www.bast.de (December 2012). "Traffic and Accident Data: Summary Statistics - Germany"

Deathocracy > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:11

1

Since everyone's already commented on how good and reasonable the article was I just wanted to also say that I HATE USING COMMAS FOR PERIODS AND PERIODS FOR COMMAS IN NUMBERS! It makes no sense! You should stop at a period and pause at a comma, like in language, but for metric numbers its all backwards. This must be how metric people feel about our imperial numbers...

R W > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:11

0

If you dont want to sign up for the thing

I love you but I've chosen hooning! > Deputy Kovacs 04/08/2014 at 14:13

0

Admit it. You didn't finish the whole thing because mid-article you snorted cocaine from a hookers butt-crack!

extraspecialbitter > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:15

4

This is kind of irking me.

Traveling as fast as you want on the Autobahn was not deemed by your country as a constitutional right. The two issues shouldn't be comparable.

Zsa Zsa Gaborg > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:15

0

When I read the link to the ADAC scandal, I was expecting something sordid and petty, like embezzlement or misuse of funds. But using rescue helicopters for personal trips, not once but dozens of times? That is some shady, shady bullshit.

The Gray Adder > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 04/08/2014 at 14:17

0

Considering that everything from top-end Mercedes-Benzes to grandmas driving Type I Volkswagens (Hitler only guaranteed those for 62 MPH, but what did you expect for 990 Reichmarks) to lumbering beer trucks are driving on it, all at the same time, I'd say the Autobahn is something else indeed.

The Gray Adder > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 04/08/2014 at 14:18

0

Hitler liked to go fast.

Super Nintendo Chalmers > Raphael Orlove 04/08/2014 at 14:18

0

Were they ever able to prove their population's traffic actually killed 1 tree? I don't think they did.

dogisbadob > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:19

0

Awesome article

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > extraspecialbitter 04/08/2014 at 14:26

0

You are right, that's why I wrote "the nature" of both debates. The facts are different and I never compared them nor wanted to - I would be too far out of my debts.

It's more about the emotional aspects. Can we agree - a bit - here?

tapzz > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:28

1

'ne sehr gute Fassung, recht schönen Dank!

Having driven the 'bahn a few times, I'd agree that it wouldn't be much of a practical loss if it gets restricted. But I wonder whether the car industry isn't a bigger factor in the political debate than we think.

The ability to handle very high speeds over long periods of time with ease may not be much of a marketing argument in Germany itself, but I think that outside of it, it is an important factor in the general image of German cars. It's not entirely rational, bearing in mind that buying luxury cars isn't rational anyway, but the idea that your new C class or even a Polo GTI can easily do 200 km/h and keep it up all day is attractive. And the autobahn proves that it isn't an idle boast.

-Tom- > Raphael Orlove 04/08/2014 at 14:33

9

Orlove, the impression I get from this article is "I dont like it, or find it necessary, so ban it." Am I correct?

By saying its a fuel consumption or green issue isnt really a valid argument. If that were the case they would go after race tracks and have all cars electronically governed to an optimal acceleration rate and speed. People will still use the fuel whether you impose a limit or not.

Next, regarding safety, how many people die on the autobahn every year? How many of these are innocent bystanders taken out by people losing control? Is it any more than elsewhere in the country? Is it less safe than driving around town, which is the driving most people do?

The EU, well, screw them. Germany is still its own country afterall, and quite a powerful one economically. The EU wouldnt dare boot them because of a speed limit issue.

Also, this article is oozing with envy and fear. Describing 180kph as a white knuckle experience, well, perhaps in a 1.3l ecobox sure. I know my IS300 can maintain that speed comfortably and I wouldnt exactly consider it even close to exotic or high performance. From there saying "well, perhaps if I were a supercar owner....", so let me get this straight, you dont have a car that you deem enjoyable to drive fast in, nor do you feel you have the skills to operate said vehicle at fast speeds, nor do you feel you have the economic means to regularly drive at high speeds...as such, ban it.

I received absolutely no compelling arguments from this article what so ever. Sorry but just Orlove said about guns...."I cant afford a gun/I dont have a "fun" gun/I'm not comfortable around guns, therefor they should be banned"

Bigdaddy > Raphael Orlove 04/08/2014 at 14:35

0

I think I have to disagree with that gun debate just a bit. I think a more comparable debate is man made global warming vs natural warming vs no warming at all.

The global warming debate is like a religious debate, wrapped in an abortion with a side of gun control. People just seem to loose their mind when this comes up and the proposed corrective actions or lack there of, are all very serious* and urgent.

*depending on your point of view.

tehGnomeArmy > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:37

1

I think 130 km or 80 miles is plenty fast. I have a decently fast and capable German automobile and doing about 80 on a 65 highway here in states feels pretty natural and I don't feel the need to go any faster. I have also driven through Germany (Berlin->Munich) with a friend in his Mazda 6 doing 180km+ and it felt pretty scary to tell the truth, I bet it would be a different story in an M car, but that is nowhere near the norm. Oh and great article.

the_wheelerZ > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:39

0

I often think that our roads in Canada and the US are generally suitable for high speed driving, but I know that it would be very difficult to raise (heaven forbid delimit!) the speed limits because the drivers are too bad to do it safely and they dont pay nearly enough attention or put enough importance to their driving.

In my limited time in Germany, I found that in general, Germans do take driving very seriously as well as have a lot of pride in their attention to detail. I feel like a major reason for this is the unrestricted sections of highway force them to be. I am afraid that if they get rid of the highway, the drivers will begin a slow decline to the level of the rest of the world.

Cant raise the speed limit without better drivers, cant have better drivers without the speed limit...

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:46

3

Having driven the A3 from Köln to the Dutch border, in a B180 CDI rental, the good drivers from the US (those who observe lane discipline etc) find the Autobahn amazing, simply because we know what we are missing back home. It's not just the speed, it's the quality of the drivers.

To be honest, there isn't much difference between doing 130km/h to 160km/h to 200km/h. So long as you have everyone being predictable without fail. But that doesn't happen in the US. Drivers are so awful as to be unpredictable.

The derestricted sections are the last bastion of the German Government telling you to use your own best judgement. That is rare in the world today. And that is something that the German People should fight like hell to maintain.

Stef Schrader > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:48

0

'sokay, we pretty much think of ze Germans like you're all Bavarians. Oh, and something about chocolate cake that Germans don't really make.

{ ducks }

Powersurge > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:49

0

My problem with speed limits is when the state and law enforcement decide to use them for generating profit. You don't hear many debates about speed limits in Southern European or South American countries (all of which have limits of 130 km/h or lower) because their enforcement is quite lax.

I'm from Portugal but I live in Canada, and the differences are stark. Canada has a ridiculous limit of 100 km/h (in Ontario) on highways and uses draconian enforcement tactics to draw profits from ticketing. This includes an absurd law that if you exceed the limit by 50 km/h your car is seized by the police on the spot, your license is immediately suspended, and you are charged with "stunt driving"; for which you can be arrested, comes with a minimum $1500 fine, and will also likely cause you to lose your insurance.

Portugal, on the other hand, has a limit of 120 km/h on its highways, however you can comfortably drive at 160 km/h and above if you wish. There is little fear of being harassed by the police (though you do have to be on the lookout for speeding cameras) and even if you are caught, you simply pay the 300-600 Euro fine (or better yet give the officer an equivalent bribe) and continue on your merry way.

So you can see there are very different outcomes even when speed limits exist. One is utter hell, while another can be perfectly tolerable. It's all on how the state chooses to enforce it (and I don't think this bodes well for Germany).

Also, what would say about countries like Poland and Bulgaria recently raising their speed limits to 140 km/h? Clearly they have found a legitimate reason to do so, why do you think this is?

Ilya > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:50

2

Jolopnik, how do i submit an article? Ive been planning to write one for a while, and this inspired me... I dont agree with this. Im military and all my adulthood been dreaming of getting stationed here, so far been here two years. I owned supercharged e90 m3 and now i have c6z06. Autobahn is a blast to drive and i want to write of why US should have unrestricted highways! It is amazing, and US road can surely support no speed limits. I have no idea why he is saying 180km/h(110mph) is white knuckle speeds, u often get passed by some diesel station wagon going 220km/h (140mph) on daily basis. This guy has no clue.

Pls email me so i can submit it. iav0930@gmail.com

drdude > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:51

0

This is a very long article that touches on several things, however I must say:

Yes I am a cowboy.

Yes I like hamburgers (and the even more american, Cheeseburger)

No. I hate baseball. Its boring.

ellomdian > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:52

0

TL;DR - If you're not driving a car made for 'Bahn-sturming (forgive the pun...) the people on the road who shouldn't be there ruin the experience.

This sounds a lot like the other automotive 'Heritage' experiences I've been a part of; when you are actually on the Salt, or driving a lap, or even watching a race, there is a lot of real-world crap that gets edited out when you heard the story.

Ilya > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:53

0

i used to hit 200mph in my m3 on weekly basis. Z06 is not as stable at higher speeds so i take to 190mph

flopidiflop > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:54

0

Nice article and you brought up good points. But I am still against a general speed limit and I can explain that position with a few words.

Now I am a german as well. Even worse...I am from Bavaria (I fully expect anyone from the other 15 states to stop reading here). And I drive a fast BMW sometimes (just wanted to add that aswell...for the stereotypes you know ;) )

I like travelling as much as I like cars. In the past ten years I have driven cars in many other countries such as the US, Austria, Italy, France, Switzerland, Greece, Norway etc. And they all have one thing in common: speed limits on their highways (who would have guessed that). And usually that is fair enough. No problem at all. But as soon as you return to germany after a few weeks you discover what you missed during your road trips in foreign countries. It´s a refreshing feeling to even mildly drive faster without having to think about it. Going 150? No problem. In other countries I would be driving around at 135 constantly checking my speed to make sure I don´t go to fast (because you really, really don´t want to do that...trust me). It just creates a tension and makes me feel uneasy.

In Germany if the road is clear or if the traffic flows I can just forget about all that speed limit nonsense and relax, keep my eyes on the road and simply drive. When you come back from a roadtrip abroad you really feel how you missed that relaxed driving on the highway.

And this is why I hope everything stays like it is right now.

extraspecialbitter > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:55

0

Oh, absolutely. This is why I also wrote " shouldn't be comparable".

I know many people who would have no problem comparing the two, and scoffing at our "constitutional right".

MasterK350Z > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 14:58

0

If people are concerned about the dangers of speed, don't use the autobahn! It's like smoking; we all know it's dangerous, but we do it anyway because it's our mistake to make. There are so few instances of people becoming LESS free in this world. Allow educated adults to make decisions for themselves. "Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both [a fool and a coward]."

The autobahn might be marginally more dangerous, but as long as people fully understand that the onus is on them to make the decision to use the dangerous autobahn or the safer B-roads. And whatever happens to them is on their heads.

We can prevent ALL traffic deaths by never getting in a car! Let's ban all automobiles to save their lives. Per the OP, we have to do anything we can to save lives, right?

NightDriver > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:10

1

Mark - I'm another American car enthusiast who has driven on the Autobahn (in a nice little BMW 128 convertible). What Slave2anMG said is true, and what I'd offer as perhaps the greatest difference between driving in Germany and driving in the US: lane discipline. In Germany slower traffic really kept right and if you got behind somebody they'd move right and let you pass on the left. In the US - I'm kinda laughing a little bit, that just doesn't happen here. People will sometimes try to block you and somehow even egos get involved frequently. I wish we behaved more like Germans, but there you have it. Also, I generally found the Autobahn to be better engineered as a road than the US Interstates. More cement surfaces instead of asphalt, smoother stretches, and even more attention paid to milder slopes and drops. Personally I'd like to see Germany keep her Autobahns, but I appreciate all the effort you put into writing your article. It's a very good read.

uofime > Raphael Orlove 04/08/2014 at 15:15

1

I hear your Waldsterben and raise you Porsche 918. See Germany is solving their own problem

iska2000 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:16

1

One thing I've noticed as an American is that on the whole, Germans seem to take driving more seriously. I don't mean you're all closet race car drivers. But you seem to drive a lot better than we do.

Having looked at the requirements for getting and keeping a license in Germany vs the USA, I suspect it is your training and your driving laws - for instance, the average German would doubtless be appalled at the idea that Americans routinely rack up multiple DWI's and are still allowed to drive. Hell, in the state where I live, you get as little as 60 days in jail for your 5th drunk driving arrest, and it's almost routine for offenders to keep their license from being suspended - One case I recall from a number of years ago involved a guy with 20 DWI convictions who only had to serve 10 months in jail.

I suspect one reason for Germany taking driver training and licensing so much more seriously than we do is the Autobahn. I imagine the thinking would be something like "Hell, if this guy's gonna maybe be doing 320kph on the Autobahn, we'd better make damned sure he knows how to drive first."

In my country we focus on making roads safer, and aren't so worried about making drivers safer. I, personally, prefer the opposite approach.

TractionControlOff > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:16

0

This is why they should ease up on speed limit laws in the U.S. Sure, it might be crazy for the first week, but people will soon become bored of the speed. It's similar to why France has lower DUI deaths than the U.S. (I think, that's not backed by any sources).

hatbob2 > extraspecialbitter 04/08/2014 at 15:18

1

I love how you totally miss the subtly of his argument. How very like a gun nut.

Bueller > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:18

0

While I agree that there is such a thing as a speed too fast for a car, most, even in Europe, can easily go at 100MPH, which is quite comfortable and does not require more skills than going at 70MPH. Mind you, 70MPH, more or less, is what you'd likely see if the retards get their way. To put this in perspective, it's the same speed limit that cars over 50 years would go. It is just too freaking slow, unless you're a retard and think that it's for the good of the cheeldrin...

Jimmy Joe Meeker > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:20

0

Drive I-294 outside of Chicago, Illinois when it is moving but traffic just heavy enough so the lack the lane discipline and the 55mph speed limit reach their maximum effect prior to it tipping into a congested nightmare. After that experience you'll be very very very happy with the Autobahn driving experience.

See if it were bumper to bumper it would be not all that much more horrific than a traffic jam on the Autobahn. But prior to that point, the lack of keeping right and insanely low speed limit will bring about an insanity in anyone accustomed to civilized driving.

You don't want speed limits set by people who think they have all the answers for society. That's what what happened in the USA. That's why driving is so horrid here today. It started with Nixon's speed limit. Well actually there were precursors but the real effects started with the NMSL.

Damn safety 'baby on board' culture of the late 1980s and beyond is ruining everything in the developed western world. This is what happens when kids don't play on playgrounds made of pipe and gravel.

Land-Rover Matt > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:21

0

Most people aren't going much over 130, those that are aren't causing many problems oder? So restricting all autobahns won't make much practical difference.

Nah. Strikes me this is more about appeasing the "ban stuff I don't like" crowd. This is an attitude the UK has in spades and I reckon Germany suffers from it too.

This prohibitionist attitude has it's roots in lazy media not explaining complex issues to a public with a short attention span who demand action from cowardly politicians who have, accurately, observed that telling voters stuff they don't want to hear is not popular. And democratic politicians desperately want to be liked. So they make a law banning it. Whatever "it" is. They're not sure. But it's bad mmkay?

If, and I say IF there is a problem, rather than enacting yet another law/act of prohibition, which we aren't short of in the West, it is better to:

a) Concentrate on the standard of driver training. (Not necessary in Germany and I'd opine that getting a licence there focuses far too much on spending a set amount of money on lessons).

b) Enforce driving standards with a well trained and supervised body of officers who have the power of discretion and the common sense to use it. Yes this does cost money.

A "spirit of the law rather than a letter of the law" approach in other words, Germany is not very good at this in my experience. Nor actually is any Continentel country I can think of. (Don't worry, the UK is fast catching up, and soon we'll up to EU policing standards as set by Italy and Spain for semi trained fuckwits with personality disorders going through the motions).

hatbob2 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:24

1

Except Jeremy Clarkson is an ignorant unfunny fuckwit. If you are going to make national sterotype jokes they should be good jokes .

thebigbossyboss > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:35

0

Well I for one would like to try it, before it's phased out. Of course the powers that be around here in Ontario can't even accept reasonable limits for excellent roads. 62 mph on the 401...yeah right.

Hotdogjudge > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:40

1

Being a Danish neighbour for many years, getting frequent flashes of unlimited speed, I recently moved to Germany. And I have to say: Even though traffic effectively limits the speed most of the time, going 200kph to/from work for even a short stretch, just feels fundamentally liberating. Please don't change it, Germans.

fcukyoukinja > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 15:54

0

Grass is always greener, huh?

Raphael Orlove > -Tom- 04/08/2014 at 16:00

1

My advice is to read the article for context rather than some kind of proclamation. Linde lays out all of the perspectives of why the issue is contentious, the background for how Germans feel about speed limits on the Autobahn, and why the anti-speed-limit position is eroding, even within the country.

It's about understanding, and it's more nuanced than just 'I don't like driving fast so speed limits should be set'.

ninjagin > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 16:09

1

I think that to the extent that the Autobahn works, it works because the quality of driver education is better, and there is more respect for the consequences of the law. You can't get a great road, built to those standards, ready for those speeds without preparing drivers for them and for the ensuing responsibilities. It doesn't work in other nations because it cannot work in other nations. My $.02.

heavyfoot86 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 16:11

0

This is a great article - but as you mentioned, this takes part as an emotional debate, and I for one stand for keeping the autobahn without speed limits. I enjoy having the pleasure of driving on it a couple of times per year, and I would be very sad if a speed limit would be imposed - I guess I wouldn't be going to spend my euros in Germany anymore, maybe I would just go to France... And somehow I get the feeling that A LOT of "Jalops" living around Germany would stop going there too...

GBond > Slave2anMG 04/08/2014 at 16:11

1

There's not much that beats being 200 km away from where you were an hour ago without any fuss.

Trains and planes don't count because of all the hassles of getting into/out of them.

heavyfoot86 > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 04/08/2014 at 16:17

0

Agreed

Mike_Smith > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 16:51

0

I'm sure the Autobahn will continue to become more restricted over time. But 130 km/hr is too low - that's only 80 mi/hr. I know that's still high compared to most limits in the US, but most limits in the US are too low IMO. It's 55 mi/hr where I live, but that is a complete joke - nobody drives that slow around here, at least not on the limited-access highways.

Mike_Smith > Raphael Orlove 04/08/2014 at 16:53

0

Sure it's about "I don't like driving fast", at least a little bit - otherwise why would he have bothered to make that point? Sure, some people don't like to drive as fast as others. There's a solution to that, and a German one to boot - RECHTSFAHREN.

papabear13 > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 17:09

0

I travel to Germany several times a year for work. I was extremely excited to drive on the Autobahn...on a roughly 2 hour trip from the airport I spent about 1 hour and 45 minutes either in construction zone, on a section of road with a speed limit, or just plain stuck in traffic too heavy to allow any real speed. Anytime I'm traveling with someone who's never been there before they are always surprised at how little "no speed limit" there actually is.

The only time I've ever really felt like I had a "true" autobahn experience was very early in the morning when. I overslept for an early morning flight by almost an hour. Luckily I had a decent enough rental car to make up the time.

As a general rule I've often felt safer on the Autobahn in those unrestricted sections than I do on many American highways doing half the speed. It's amazing how big a difference it makes when slower traffic actually keeps to the right, and people only use the passing lane for actual passing.

Flavien Vidal > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 17:25

2

Oh no worries, I know that... I'm just sharing my view as a car geek and how I see Germany. I like to go there, people are nice and I have a few german friends, but the country in itself is just not really my thing.

One thing that I think you underestimate is the touristic value of the autobahn, the last bit of highway freedom on earth. I've met countless amount of people who rented cars for a day while there, just to "get on the autobahn". Sure your entire economy is not based on that lol, but it does attract more people than you think. Or people who choose to cross to Czech republic through Germany just because it's faster and roads are nicer.

As of right now, your roads are build with "no speed limit" in mind. What happens when you don't need to sped that amount of money in safety and perfect roads because afterall, France does well enough without spending as much?

Autobahn are safer than your own normal roads, despite having no speed limits (22 deaths per 1000 injury crashes, 27 for normal roads), so why focusing on something that is safer than your average 90kph commute? Also with less than 400 fatalities on the autobahn per year (10% roughly of your annual death toll in the country), this is hardly something "problematic".

People will always crash and die. I personnally don't think it's worth it to have a huge part of the public opinion against a decision, added to a potential loss of tourism and economy from people choosing to travel through Germany to go to eastern europe, all that to "hope" to save a 100 people, eventhough other countries with speed limits can't seem to succeed in this task already.

Reborn Pyrrhic > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 17:27

1

As a US Army soldier stationed in Germany, here for two years now, I say your article is spot on. My feelings towards the Autobahn equal yours, I find that mostly it is a drag to get on it, for the same reasons: traffic, drivers around me, speed limits, etc. I tend to stay off the Autobahn unless I am going two hours away or further. The back roads are much nicer, more relaxed and the scenery is better too.

I think that if a speed limit is put in place for the unrestricted parts of the Autobahn perhaps it should be higher than 130 km/h. Make those sections that are today unrestricted up to 160 or 180 km/h zones. I find there is very little to gain by faster speeds (if your argument for speeding is to arrive somewhere faster), but some parts of the Autobahn are so well paved and signaled that a 130 km/h speed limit would be counter productive.

ChrisMD123 > crowmolly 04/08/2014 at 17:29

1

It's now fairly mainstream urbanist dogma to compare cars to guns because they're both capable of killing people. Not to go too far afield of the poster's excellent assessment of speed limits in Germany, but it's worth looking at why these two issues are materially different. I'm probably preaching to the choir on this site, but I'm sure that those of us who live in cities have heard these arguments before.

The most obvious parallel between cars and guns is that although people can kill with either one, the vast majority of those with cars or guns do not kill people. How much should that majority be punished for the extreme minority that can do tremendous, "tragic" damage?

Of course, the argument breaks down on its face because while driving provides utility (mobility and increased accessibility tempered by traffic), and Autobahn speeds increase that utility in many cases, guns provide essentially no utility to their users. Guns for "household protection" are likelier to be used against the owner than the assailant. Guns for hunting provide individual pleasure, but not utility in the strict sense.

The more significant and broadly agreeable difference is that while cars are registered yearly, and drivers are licensed every few years, in most US states one can receive a gun with little or no training, and in some cases, without a license altogether.

Training, licensing, and rigorous standards make dangerous things safer. Few would argue that the concept of flying is inherently more dangerous than driving, due to the greater number of variables in flight compared to surface transportation. But commercial air travel is actually miles safer than driving because we license and regulate the living hell out of it.

To come back around to the German issue, note that licensing and regulating the living hell out of aviation doesn't mean that we set speed limits on it, because if you've done your job right speed has absolutely nothing to do with air safety except when taking off and landing. If we aren't making our roads safer with slow speed limits, then why are we removing utility from motoring, and why don't we re-concentrate our efforts on stricter driver training and vehicle repair standards - the two things that have made the most difference in making commercial aviation the safest form of transport?

raph > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 17:35

4

[Wall of text warning - I am German and I have a very different point of view on many items]

Hi Mark,

I am disappointed about your article. I think your view is a little immature, yet exactly the way I know Germans. Like I used to know myself, because I am German.

We're about the same age (I am turning 30 this year), I am a "qualified petrolhead" that owned several Alfa Romeos, a Mustang GT (V8) and his second BMW now - and I am well traveled, which I believe enables me to have a different point of view on - Clichés, Stereotypes, National Pride and the Autobahn.

First of all, it's sad to read that you still carry this difficult relationship to your country and it's history. Why do you feel the need to mention Hitler and that your parents didn't have anything to do with it? Anyone with half a brain should safely assume that. Yet you fail to mention the historically important rumors that he "invented" the Autobahn (according to Wikipedia, Konrad Adenauer really did, but Adolf claimed the success).

Before I got to travel the world, I too had a little awkward relationship with "our fatherland" and my heritage. Sadly, many Germans are taught that they have to feel ashamed about their history. I don't think this is true anymore. The 3rd Reich ended 69 years ago, how long do you feel you have to deal with something that at least the last four Generations didn't have anything to do with? F.. that!

Then there's Stereotypes. You may think that people that don't travel much have the portraits of Bavarians as Germans. Tall Blonde Guys in Lederhosn, celebrating Oktoberfest... But reality is different, as is most people's real perception. I've been to around 30 countries to date, I lived abroad for some time and learn that the vast majority of people know better. Sure enough, people that don't know Germany well will only think of Munich and Berlin, yet sometimes someone will knock you off your socks, like when you try to explain to a cashier in New Jersey that your hometown is very close to the dutch border and he mentions "Krefeld? That's like 50 kilometers!" or a homeless beggar in Miami suddenly starts speaking fluent (native!) German because he used to live in Munich for 12 years. Never underestimate people!

What I did learn however, is that our reputation is actually rather excellent overall. So please get over the WW2 history that you haven't been involved, your parents and even your grandpararents haven't been involved in. I don't see many Americans crying over their bad history.

While sometimes considered a bit boring, we are known to be intelligent, efficient, well mannered, hard working, quality producing, car loving, good driving...

Yes: Cars and our car manufacturers are a big part of our identity and rightfully so! And the Autobahn and its lack of speed limits play a big part into it and are important. That way we're showing the world that we can have a little bit of fun and we can still have a little bit of faith in our population not to kill themselves, while everything around us gets overregulated.

We don't need "Coffee is hot!" warnings on cups, we don't need labels not to dry our hamsters in a microwave. We don't need "Caution: Wet floor!" signs and we don't need speed limits! (Sorry US friends).

This week, I'll be once again driving to England and back (crossing the Netherlands, Belgium and France). I know that driving under a speed limit will probably be more relaxed again, (particularly most Dutch drivers are actually rather well mannered and quick to make way in my experience, or maybe the German License Plate is scaring them off ;-) ) However, I also know that I will be speeding a little bit almost constantly (surprisingly the only foreign Ticket I ever got was from Australia, about $120 for approx 6km/h - ridiculous!) and as soon as I'll cross the border back into Germany, I'll put my foot down because I missed it and BECAUSE I CAN!

You're very welcome to travel at the recommended speed of 130km/h or even 90 behind a truck, but don't force us "free citizens" into it. My experience from other countries (particularly the UK and the US) is that people are much less wary, driving on motorways. You just set the cruise control to 60-80 mp/h and then mind other things. The good thing about the Autobahn is that you constantly have to be aware of you're surroundings. There could be a shitbox of a van pulling out to overtake a truck at 91km/h, or there could be an RS6 approaching at 280. You have to be prepared to deal with both. Last November, I spent a week in a Corvette in the States. Terribly frustrating. Yes: I took it to 130 mp/h (very briefly and I didn't get caught :P), but it was much more scary, because people don't expect you to do that kind of speed, few people make way and you're mostly concerned there could be cops behind the next bend, putting you behind bars for the night. No thanks, I love my FREEDOM to drive fast legally when I want to, and I love that people are forced to be considerate towards other road users. We already have plenty of annoying speedlimits, (fix the road? Nah, put up a sign instead!) and real world traffic hardly ever allows you to really push the limits of a decent car, unless it's late a night, or you're in a special place (A2 between Magdeburg and Berlin = LOVE!)

Germany is truely one of the best countries in the world to live in. In terms of quality of life, freedom, social security, education... so it's okay to be proud of it.

You don't have to be proud to be German (I find such nationalistic thoughts silly, it's not like you get to choose where you're born), but it's perfectly acceptable to be proud about so many things that our country does right, and many positive things that are associated with Germany / Germans. And one of those things is the Autobahn and the freedom to decide what speed of travel can be considered safe.

Particularly for tourists, the Autobahn is a big part of the German identity. As other commenters mentioned, without it it's not really that different from many other European countries and there's less incentive to travel here. And cross country travel (that I do regularly) would be much more dull and annoying.

Sorry for the long text, but I had to get this off my chest. I hope that one day you can appreciate your heritage and I would appreciate some responses.

Farz > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 17:57

0

That's what you think right now. But when speed limits are gonna be enforced like madness and you'll be punished for the slightest missconduct, it'll drive you crazy and you'll crave for limit-free highways again.

Did you ever cruised in France at 130km/h ? Get ready to fall the fuck asleep.

crowmolly > ChrisMD123 04/08/2014 at 18:07

2

I am not so sure about the lack of utility with guns. I do not have any raw data to back this up but I wonder about this:

What % of people on the Autobahn in Germany get measurable/noticeable extra utility out of the high speed.

vs.

What % of people in the USA rely on their own firearms for household protection.

It's important to remember that there's a pretty large segment of the US population that do not have a local police force and have to rely on state patrol with very long response times. In that case those people have to (realistically) provide their own security. For reference, even some areas in heavily populated states like New Jersey are like this.

The comparison can be a bit of a stretch since the USA was founded with the right to bear arms in our Constitution and the Autobahn is more of a traditional thing. But in my opinion it's the closest comparison you can make between the two issues on an emotional level that would create some level of understanding.

As far as licensing that can be applied up to a point. To the best of my knowledge the German driving test (while much better than the USA test) does not include thorough high speed handling and reaction time training which are skills that are necessary to do 300km/h.

Bueller > NightDriver 04/08/2014 at 18:26

1

Phooey! I had to brake hard at above 100MPH to slow down for the big rig which just pulled in my lane at 60MPH to pass another rig going at 58MPH.

klurejr > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 18:26

0

I want de-restricted highways out in the deserts and rural freeways of the US not because I think it is fun and cool to drive fast, but rather because I can trade lower fuel economy for a shorter trip when I have to drive long distances. Nothing is very close when you live in the southwest. My mother in law and my wifes grandfather live nearly 300 miles away in the Arizona Desert. I can cut my travel time down by nearly an hour if I was able to legally drive 120mph, but the speed limits at best are 70mph and the CHP is all over speeders out there. I am sure there are a number of rural stretches of freeway that could benefit from this in many places in the US.

shitheelandtoe > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 18:41

0

The speed limits or lack thereof on German autobahns are an internal German affair, period. It should not matter to you one whit what the rest of the world thinks. You are a democratic country with democratic institutions. If your electorate decides there should be speed limits on the highways - the hell with what everyone else thinks or wants. No need to justify it to anyone (other than the German electorate). Same thing goes if you decide to keep unlimited speeds.

yeahrightss > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 18:46

0

Car-hating Millennials ruined F1, and now they are going after the autobahn

talkin2me > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 18:48

0

Good read, although I think the safety issue isn't an issue at all, in my opinion. 304 fatalities on the Autobahn last year is a fairly low number considering the amount of people that use it every day. And the number for fatalities on unrestricted Autobahnen (only 30% are actually unrestricted, as you pointed out) caused by accidents at 130+kph will surely be much lower still.

In fact, one might argue that driving on an unrestricted Autobahn makes you more aware and therefore a better driver.

As a German I have thousands of kilometers of unrestricted Autobahnen under my belt, as well as thousands of miles of US highways, and I generally felt safer on the Autobahn. People tend to be more focussed and disciplined when they know others might travel at a faster speed.

colorfulyawn > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 04/08/2014 at 19:05

3

As an outsider, my own view of the Autobahn's appeal isn't necessarily the thrill of speed: It's the relief of not having to drive at a speed that feels artificially slow.

I'm not interested in topping my car out. I know I'm not a race car driver, and I don't have anything to prove. But sometimes, being stuck behind other motorists at 70-80 mph just feels like goddamned torture.

Here in America, we have these things called shopping malls. They're places where fat people bring their fat families to walk abreast of each other very slowly, blocking you from buying that extended warranty for your iPhone from the Apple Store. You cannot get around these fat, slow people. You cannot even walk behind them without feeling like you're going to trip over your own feet. You have to shorten your stride to baby steps to avoid running them over.

That's what having strictly enforced speed limits on the freeway feels like. Like you're moving so slowly you're in danger of falling over due to the unnatural stride. It sucks. Unrestricted portions of Autobahn sound wonderful, if only because you can pin it and get around the fat, slow people instead of having to accept being stuck behind them.